In conversation with her daughter, Ellen von Unwerth speaks playfully and openly about life and art

The widely celebrated German fashion photographer Ellen von Unwerth is known for her gleeful images of women unapologetically being themselves and having fun in front of the camera. She’s taken photos of Naomi Campbell and Kate Moss playing and laughing in the bathtub, Madonna stuffing her mouth with cake, and models just generally letting loose — splashing spaghetti on each other’s chests and pulling down their underwear.

“I just love to see women being powerful and oozing femininity and oozing their personality,” von Unwerth tells her daughter, Rebecca Fourteau, from her vacation home in Saint-Tropez. In their conversation, Fourteau, a New York-based filmmaker who’s collaborated with her mother on shoots since she was a child, asks her mother the questions she’s always wanted to ask about photographing women and fashion for over 40 years.

Rebecca Fourteau: Before you were a photographer, you were a model. You’ve mentioned that you found most of your self-confidence when you became a photographer and that it was much better suited for you. You hated having to pose for hours in the same uncomfortable position and to be told to move one millimeter at a time. Do you think having been a model influences the way you take photos? And do you think about the models’ experience when you photograph?

Ellen von Unwerth: Yes, I think about it all the time. Because when I was a model, I was only judged for my exterior, my face, and I wanted to also show my personality. Before I was a model, I was living in a hippie community and we had so much fun, we were dancing and singing and so expressive and artistic. And then when I was a model, suddenly, I was reduced just to a pretty face. I was always frustrated — I felt uncomfortable in front of the camera, except some photographers, like [Oliviero] Toscani, who wanted lively pictures, lots of jumping and smiling. When I started to take pictures of my model friends, and I knew the other side of them, I asked them [not to do] the model poses, but just live in front of the camera and be fun and express themselves and do silly things — be as free as possible, but also in a way that I directed them, made sure the light was pretty, made sure they looked beautiful. It was very important to bring out the beauty and the personality. I always think about: How does the girl feel? How would I feel? How can I make her come out of herself?

RF: Were you already interested in being a photographer when you were a model?

EVU: My boyfriend was a photographer, and he was always [talking with] his friends about photography, and I was actually not really interested in it — I thought it was boring [laughs]. But we had an enlarger to print — which actually became your room later. In your room, we had a little photo lab, and my boyfriend taught me how to print because he took lots of pictures of me and he always developed only one, and I always wanted to see the other 35 ones. So, he taught me how to print. When he gave me the camera, I started to take pictures of my friends and I did documentary photography in Kenya, when I was still a model. When I came back, I looked at the contact sheets and I was like, “Oh, these look actually quite nice.” I came by accident to it, and then it became straightaway my passion. I was listening to Madonna and doing my prints all night long.

RF: I know from having grown up with you that you’re never without a camera, or at least your iPhone in your hand, and that everything’s an opportunity to capture a photo. Every interaction is an opportunity for a fun portrait. Even for me, there’s no experience that didn’t involve having to hold a lobster claw like it’s attacking me or kicking up my leg next to a vintage sports car parked in the street [laughs]. How do you feel when you have a camera in your hand versus when you don’t?

EVU: When I have the camera, I’m switching on my photographic eye. I suddenly become like a sniper, looking for moments that I want to capture. I’m sure you remember, I was always taking pictures of you, and most of the time you didn’t even care. That was the best because I love that you never really posed — you were just doing your thing, and I could take all these cute moments of you just not caring for the camera. You remember all those beautiful moments? Just playing with the little shell and the little basket. … You’d always come with me on the trips — at that time, clients would actually pay for the nanny and you to come on trips with me. Until at a certain point you were like, “Mom, no.” You were taking a shower and you were like, “Mom, would you like me to take a picture of you while you’re in the shower?” [Laughs.] And I was like, “I guess not, OK.”

RF: You’ve said that when you were younger, you were quite shy. I wonder if the camera allows you to turn your eye outwards and not be self-conscious.

EVU: For sure. I was very shy, super shy. I remember my husband always told me, “You couldn’t even go into the bakery and ask for a baguette.” But having a camera, it’s psychological. Because you have to put yourself out there to communicate with people and get to know them and direct them. I did once this video for Cannes, and I had to go up to all the actors and directors and ask them about their experiences, and that was really a good lesson because then I had to overcome my shyness to approach these people.

RF: What projects are you working on now?

EVU: I’m doing a big exhibition [at the Fotomuseum aan het Vrijthof] in Holland about the circus, because the circus, as you know, was also a big part of my life. When I was kicked out of school, there was this circus in Munich, and I loved it so much that after the show, I went to the director and asked if I could have a role in the circus. At the time, I had big curly hair, I was wearing a sporty dress, and he said, “Oh, you look like a circus girl, you can start tomorrow.” I was doing all these little acts, nothing acrobatic or anything, but I was the assistant of the clown, of the maestro; I was the number girl after each act. That inspired me a lot. Also, in my photography, I’m always attracted to performance; I have so many friends who perform or are dancers, magicians, and so there’s always this sense of performance — a little bit of mystery, glitter, it’s a bit dusty, it’s a bit glamorous, but a little disheveled.

I’ve also created my own magazine, which is a super fun outlet to just do what I want and photograph people that other magazines are not really interested in because they’re not big enough. I’m talking again about [adapting] one of my books into a movie.

RF: Besides photography, you are an incredibly creative and artistic person all around. You’re such an incredible painter and illustrator, too. I wonder, if you were not a photographer, what else you would be.

EVU: Probably a circus director.

RF: Something performance related. Yeah, I can see that.

One of my favorite things about your photos is how you really feel like you’re with the person you’re photographing and getting to know them. Having been on a lot of your shoots, I know that’s because of the energy you bring to the set. You always have a fun playlist. You give your models roles to play or characters to inhabit. The laughter that you see in the photos is real, it’s really happening on set, and sometimes it’s triggered from something silly you’re saying from behind the camera. Most of all, you’re always very encouraging and empowering and supportive of any idea the model might have. I think that really allows the models to reveal themselves and to feel confident.

EVU: I want to bring out the best. The casting is very important. I don’t work with people where I think we’re not going to connect. I like people who have a little bit of a little devil in them, who can also be a little bit naughty, and they can take a joke. It’s always good to have music, it creates the mood. When you don’t have music, you hear too much the sound of the camera, the clicking, and it’s better when it all feels a little bit like a movie. And as you say, sometimes I say really silly things. I don’t know where it’s coming from. [Laughs.]

RF: That probably sets the mood to make the models feel like they can be playful and experiment.

EVU: They lose a bit of self-control, they loosen up. That’s always the best part, when people just become more free and laugh. When you think the shoot is over, and people are very relaxed, often I shoot — some people don’t understand that. But that’s often when you get the best pictures.

Actors often think, “Now it’s picture time, they have to pose,” but actually, I want it more like a movie. Because I don’t want to capture something still, I want to capture movement. That’s often why my pictures are also out of focus. When I see, for example, a contact sheet, I will straightaway go to the out-of-focus picture, and that’s going to be my favorite.

RF: Films are such a big inspiration for you, too. Growing up, we watched films every night, and still do. You introduced me to German Expressionism and Lubitsch and Hitchcock and such a broad collection of mostly classic and older films. A lot of your fashion stories reference films, and the way you art-direct the models and do hair and makeup is often in reference to an actor or a role in a movie. Even as a little girl, I was featured in some of your shoots you did for Vogue in the ’90s with Grace Coddington, and one of them was inspired by one of my favorite movies, “The Piano” by Jane Campion, and another one, Jane of the Jungle [from “Tarzan”].

EVU: I was obsessed with movies from very early on. Movies from the ’60s, ’50s, movies with Brigitte Bardot, Italian movies, Sophia Loren. Those women and the way they were filmed was so beautiful. Even when they were in distress — like Sophia Loren, even when she was a poor woman running away from her husband, she still looked beautiful. That really inspired me for my shoots, to show women in different situations and always make them look beautiful. When you look at the picture, you think, “Oh, what’s going on here? What’s the story?” You feel emotion, you don’t just turn the page. I think a good picture is when it tells you a little bit of a story.

RF: One of your favorite places where you’ve done the most shoots in is L.A., which is the land of Hollywood. I remember traveling there with you and going to Venice Beach or the Rose Bowl to the flea market and just being so fascinated by all the characters that exist there, and I wanted to ask you if there are any particular memories that represent the city to you.

EVU: When you were two years old, your dad and I rented a little house and we spent seven, eight months there, and I did so many photo shoots in the house. That was the beginning of my career, and you were there. We rented the big Thunderbird, cruising around. At the time, you saw so many beautiful old cars everywhere. That was a fantastic, inspiring time. Then later, I started to shoot a lot of celebrities, from Drew Barrymore to Sharon Stone, and musicians, Madonna, all these people. Most of it happened in L.A. It’s such an inspiring place because everybody kind of dreams of being a star in a movie or wherever, and so people are very out there and they’re very excited about playing a role, dressing up.

Rebecca Fourteau (left) wears a vintage dress and vintage Marc Jacobs shoes. Ellen von Unwerth (right) wears Alice + Olivia suit, Gucci vintage shoes, Gentle Monster sunglasses.

RF: You always find such amazing locations.

EVU: There are so many great bars, and Americans are so good at creating places which look like they’re old even if they’re very new. They have tons of basic bars and clubs, and I love to shoot in places like this. And then, of course, outside, the light is so beautiful. It’s always like a kind of magic.

Once, I had a book signing at Taschen, and Benedikt Taschen said, “Why don’t we put on the invitation a dress code?” My book was called “Fräulein,” which means a sassy kind of woman, which my pictures are about. And Benedikt was saying, why don’t you put “dress code: Fräulein” on it? And I was like, “Yeah, as if somebody comes to a book signing dressed up!” And little did you know, hundreds of women came all dressed up, lining up around the block in hats and corsets and S and M gear, and men too, of course. I think L.A.’s the only city where this actually can happen.

Rebecca Fourteau is a film director and videographer based in New York City.